Hey all y'all.
You know I mean Snow Flower, of course.
Ummm, so. ::awkward pause::
We may be the only ones here.
I already know we are without MemZ and JesP. I also have a hunch that Markie skipped this one. To manly to give it a go, I suppose.
Jenny is at her sister's house for dinner. Memzy didn't read it. Don't know where Amanda ran off to.
It may be short or whatever. No big deal.
Your hubby is awesome btw.
So, I keep thinking and giggling about if Lady Lu went to get a pedicure and took off her shoe and...and.... well, you know.
A pedicure here in Colorado in 2010, that is.
Unless the pedicure-ist had the same feet.
I don't think Koreans ever did that.
Oh here??? They'd have a hard time keeping their composure.
Oh hey Amanda! Did you think the "Catching Breezes" chapter was a lesbian encounter?
It was the beginning!
Great question Landee. No, not a lesbian encounter as much as curiosity and pleasure.
She eludes to their intimacy in other places later in the book.
If they would have kept at it every time they saw each other than I would have thought so.
Of course, they didn't revere bed business as anything more than a chore. So, that might have been as far as it ever went.
I was thinking her references to their "physical intimacies" later was referring to them sharing a bed, her hand on her cheek, etc.
Just checked to say I love the book club... but didn't read the book this month. I opted to read Captain Blood (LOVED IT), and read the first two Hunger Games books again (this time out lout to the wifey, who still hasn't read them). BTW, I cried while reading the part where Rue died - even after though this is the third time I've read it.Anyway, have a great discush!Uncle Markie.P.S. I'm pretty much famous now.
Could any of you identify with Snow Flower? I felt like I was Snow Flower and Lily was my mom. Always telling me what to do, judging me, and misunderstanding me. So frustrating!
^^ too manly for Snowflower but cried when Rue died? Geez.
I may have been extra sensitive because I was worried about whether it would be ok for srbc.
Why is Uncle Markie famous? What am I missing?
I didn't think Lily was judgemental! I just think SF was stupid. When she told SF to try for more sons, I think she assumed Lily would try again when it was socially acceptable to do so. I felt like Lily was always trying to help but SF was an idiot.
He's not famous.
My mom was all business and no affection. Extra bossy too. Hard to make someone with OCD happy.
Aw, Landee, that hurts my feelings. (Said in true Snow Flower fashion).
I agree Landee. She over acted with everything she said. Of course always with the rules is what she meant.
Well, when (aside from that Letter of Vitiousndoign) did Lily hurt SF on purpose?
And SF did lie to her for the first half of their relationship, remember.
I'm more the head-in-the-clouds type like Snow Flower who just wants everyone to love her and my mom who has these excellent coping skills can never understand what my problem is. Just do this, and just do that, and just try it my way, etc, etc, etc and everything will be fine. I hated Lily. People like her never learn and they never change.
Yes she did. Everyone lied to her.
Landee pointed out the other day...why are butchers so dastardly and lowly people?
SF did lie to her that's true. I'm sure she was just trying to make a better life for herself, same as Lily. They both did as the adults told them to do.Lily didn't hurt SF on purpose other than that one time but she did things not on purpose. Those still count and add up over time. Being self centered hurts other people. Especially sensitive, creative types like SF.
Interesting Amanda. I must be more like Lily, who I did like in the book. She was sensible and did what she had to do. Sometimes because she was "Lady Lu" and other times because it was necessary for survival. I could see that her way helped her and SF's way hurt her. It's simple math, really.
Butchers are gross.
Do you think you would have let your mom bind your feet? Or would you have fought it like Third Sister?
Right. Butchers seem like a necessary occupation. Otherwise the people would have to kill the animals themselves...so which is worse? I didn't get it.
I think even though SF's and Lily's eight characters matched, their Myers-Briggs Personality Types were way off. If I were to take a guess I would guess Snow Flower to be an INFP and Lily to be an ESTJ. Complete opposites. Is anyone else familiar with Myers-Briggs? What do you think?
I would have been a crying complaining pain in the butt going through feet-binding. As a foreshadowing of the kind of wife i'd be. :)
I would have tried to fight the foot binding but after a few beatings I probably would have complied. I'm pretty weak and anxious to please.
But would you have preferred to be one of those big footed servant girls??
Say what those letters stand for, Amanda.
I would have done what I was told and probably wouldn't have even let anyone see me cry. My 6 yr old self. My self now would have beat my way out and run for my life.
I'm not Amanda. Sounds intriguing.
Is everyone googling Meyers and whatever?
I = IntrovertN = Intuitive (dreamy, deep thinkers, fantasy, imaginative)F = FeelingP = Perceiving (flexible, easy going, not scheduled, go with the flow)E = ExtrovertS = Sensing (people very steeped in reality, practical)T= ThinkingJ = Judging (likes routine, scheduled, not a lot of room for error, responsible)
Also, I was waiting for Lily to fall in love with her husband and vice versa but I don't think that ever really happened. Do you?
I'm ESTJ, I'm thinking.
I don't mean to interrupt the discussion, but after we've finished go to this link and take the test. I love to learn of people's personality types, it helps me get to know them betterhttp://similarminds.com/jung.html
SF's relationship with her husband was nightmarish. She loved bed business with him, but he beat the tar out of her all the time. Yikes.
I thought at the end when they got back together after having been apart that they realized that they loved each other.
These days, SF & hubby woulda been on Maury.
I'm probably more the INFP...
I agree with you Amanda. Again. I thought they had a nice reunion too. I hated that entire part...stuck on that stupid freezing mountain. Hated it.
One thing I liked about this book is how it showed that sometimes, no matter how you try and plan your life, you are just dealt the wrong cards like poor Snow Flower. To no fault of your own you just get handed a hard life. Some people (like Lily) don't understand that other people's lives are the way they are because that's what they got and they just have to make the best of it.
Now I'm feeling bad. I'm probably being too hard on Lily.
One thing that was hard to read was the beating of Snow Flower after her son died. T.r.a.g.i.c.
I hate to be all "Pro-Lily" on your heiny but she wasn't exactly dealt a great life either. But she did what she had to do (foot-binding, kowtowing to MIL, following traditions to a tee, etc) to make it the best it could be. It was like SF didn't get that. She took everything Lily said literally, wasn't clear on her messages on the fan, and threw traditions out the window.
I loved how this book taught us a life lesson on why it's important to communicate fully and not to take offense where offense is not intended.
The beating was horrendous. And I was bugged Lily did nothing. She could have used her position to stop it, I'm thinking.
oh my gosh. wasn't clear on her messages on the fan? are you blaming this on SF? :said nicely::
It was a touchy situation. I hated it.
I am totally laughing how we are continuing Snow Flower's and Lily's fight.
Interesting there was that context thing with the nu shu. Sorta like times I've gotten in fights with my sisters simply because someone read the tone of an email wrong.
Extroverted (E) 69.7% Introverted (I) 30.3%Sensing (S) 57.14% Intuitive (N) 42.86%Thinking (T) 58.33% Feeling (F) 41.67%Judging (J) 59.46% Perceiving (P) 40.54%Your type is: ESTJESTJ - "Administrator". Much in touch with the external environment. Very responsible. Pillar of strength. 8.7% of total population.
^^ so you know what you're dealing with.
I'm gonna administrate the hell outta this place.
No wonders! This is all beginning to make sense because I am an INFP. ::said with pride::
I said mine with more pride than you, Dreamer!
SF did have nice handwriting though. I value that in a person.
Introverted (I) 60.61% Extroverted (E) 39.39%Intuitive (N) 54.84% Sensing (S) 45.16%Feeling (F) 73.33% Thinking (T) 26.67%Perceiving (P) 69.44% Judging (J) 30.56%Your type is: INFPINFP - "Questor". High capacity for caring. Emotional face to the world. High sense of honor derived from internal values. 4.4% of total population.
But we can still be friends. Not "Catching Cool Breezes" friends though. I'm married.
Yay StandsMom! We'll have to chat about this later. There's lots I want to tell you about INFP.
My husband is definitely the ESTJ. So interesting. Tiff, is your husband INFP?
I knew that hug to Aubyn was for realz!!
I'll have him take it. He could be mixed. Yes, Amanda, still friends. Laotong even, if our other signs matched up. I'd fall asleep with my hand on your cheek if you want.
That doesn't mean it was easy.
There's another test you can take too that asks more questions. You can find out what type you are, what type you wish you were, and what type you are attracted to. I found out that I wish I were an INFJ and I'm attracted to ENFPs. Thankfully my husband has always tested ENFP. Phew. Here's the link to that. But it's over a hundred questions and takes a while so I recommend it when you have a good 20 minutes or so. http://similarminds.com/pref_jung.html
I used to have a really good friend. We had subtle hand signals worked out between us. Things like, scratching our nose meant, 'lets get out of here.' Sort of our own nu shu, I guess.
Landee, a hand of the face would feel great. Could you rub my feet too? They're not golden lilies but they don't smell.
one thing that I thought was interesting was the way this book was written. The author had to totally seek out this information. I'm glad she voyaged into unseen territory. This culture, although we view some of their customs as horrific, was still universal.
You two! It's like sunday school, when Landee and Kittencarri text back and forth over my head. I'm such an INFP.
I read all of the author notes and stuff. It was pretty interesting. Do you think they still do the foot thing today?
We had to text over your head cuz we were making fun of JDowns and we knew you (being the INFP that you are) would cry. Believe me, it was for your own good.
Footbinding was outlawed in 1911 or something.
I don't know if they still do the foot thing today. I don't think so. I think I read that they pretty much discontinued the practice after 1950.
I just have to say that I've waited my whole life to meet another INFP. You have no idea how cool this is Stands Mom.
Srsly? Are they not common or something?
I sense that you INFPers blame a lot of stuff on your moms. I pray I didn't give birth to one. My mom was just as bad, trust me, and I'm like a duck & water...rolls right off my back. I hope I birthed a bunch of ESTJs.
Not common at all. I've given the test to all of my family and most of my friends and facebook friends and no INFPS. We are unique!
I have sisters who are ESTJ's. Raised by the same woman. But then I find things out, like how my mom used to show my sis how to wrap her baby dolls in blankets and stuff. She NEVER did that with me. I guess she didn't see a natural maternal tendency in me. Or, actually...I think I was a lot like my George and prob drove her completely nuts.
Maybe true. I still love my mom. Even if she does drive me insane. I just have to tell myself it's the way she is and that's okay.
The worse was trying to plan my wedding. She wanted to be all practical and stuff and I wanted the wedding of my dreams. Complete nightmare.
Dr. Phil taught me that I need to give myself the things I wish my mother had given me. So, I'm all fine now. I comment on it, but I don't really have any emotion or regret tied to it anymore. Not worth it.
Do you think your 'mother love' for your kids differs between them? Or do you give the same kind of affection and attention to each of them?
I sent the link to my sister. This might be very telling.
I gave everyone in my family the test. Father - ISTJMother ESFJBrother INTJSister ESFPSister ESFPSister ESFJSister ESFPThen there is me. I get a long with my brother the best. He's just slightly more Thinking than Feeling.
Very very interesting. I wonder if my siblings would bother with it. I'd sure like to know what they all are.
Amanda, the fact that you want to know this about everyone you know is very indicative of your personality type. Introspective and all that.
Yes, I think my 'mother love' differs between my kids. I'm the hardest on my oldest child. I'm not sure why. Maybe because she reminds me so much of myself. What about you guys?
I think I'm pretty even on the "mother love" but have to discipline them all differently. Is that all part of mother love? I forget.
Landee, yes, that's true. INFPs are very fascinated with this whole thing. In fact there are chat rooms and discussion forums for all types but the ones that get used the most are INFPs and INFJs. Lol.I've been fascinated with it since high school when I took the test for the first time in the career center.
K... I gotta get the kids going on bed. School starting this week is gonna blooooow. Awesome discush with only three peeps, eh? Thanks for the read Stands!
I'm the hardest on my second for pretty much the same reason. He drives me completely batty. But I think it's because he is so much like me. I watch him and simultaneously have flashbacks of my own behavior when I was a kid. What does that say about how I feel about myself? Weird. My oldest has a lot of my traits too, but a different set/combination. I get along much better with him. He's never been a physically affectionate person. Even as a newborn. My daughter needs lots and lots of physical attention. But she's turning into a bossy sassy pants. I'm going to have to get tough on her to reel that back in.
I was mad at Lily's mom for making Third Sister do the foot binding. I realize her station in life would have been incredibly low if Third Sister didn't have the foot binding but I don't know if I could have done it. My mother love doesn't like to hurt my kids even if it "helps" them.
For instance, I didn't tell my oldest kid about stranger danger even though it would "help" her because I knew it would hurt her and scare her more than it would help her.
See ya Landee!!! I'm gonna call it too, Amanda. Sorry. Thanks for the info about the testing stuff. I am fiercely fascinated by it. That is funny.
Goodnight Landee. It was fun discussing with you. Good luck with school. :)
You INFPs are adorable.
Goodnight Stands Mom. Great book!
Hang on a minute, Amanda. I totally get what you're saying....but being hurt by a stranger would hurt her a million times more than being warned ahead of time. I'm freaky vigilant about that stuff.
StandsMom, I should have explained better. My daughter has separation anxiety and general anxiety disorder so to tell her any information about anything makes her totally freakish. Believe me......I've been through a lot of freak outs and they're not fun. Since birth the child has never left my side. There was never even a chance for a stranger to ever get close to her. So I know I've done the right thing, especially since her anxiety level is improving as she is getting older (she's ten). She's feeling safer and more optimistic. Never regretted it for a second. What's your email address? I want to send you some more info.
Am I late? Is anyone still here?
Loved the book, btw.
I thought Catching Breezes was a lesbian encounter.
Also the heels of my feet get real dry, especially in the summer time.
Well...I guess everyone is gone...
I read all your gizes comments. Nice discush. Sorry I missed it, as I could have added some mind-blowing comments myself. In fact, here they are:I thought the break up of Lily and SF was simply heart-wrenching. I liked both characters equally and I didn't blame one more than the other for the misunderstanding, although I felt Lily's pain after SF's "betrayal" much more than I felt SF's pain from being given constant "unwanted advice". Having experienced both things in my life, I would take "unwanted advice" from a loved one over "betrayal" from a loved one any day. In defense of Lily... (and particularly in response to Amanda when she said, "I hate Lily. People like her never learn and they never change."...) Whoa. This whole book is about Lily learning and changing. She accepts responsibility and takes full blame for everything that happened, from chapter one, even though she was not entirely to blame. This story was in her POV, and she shared every unflattering thought she had. I thought she was brave and honest. Not many fictional characters would have had the balls to admit not only that they had done something wrong, but accept responsibility for having impure motives. Most people qualify their apologies with "I didn't mean to hurt you, but sorry if I did." Much respect for Lily. I accepted her heartfelt apology, and I know SF did too. We never know what SF was thinking, or what her motives were, we only got Lily's generous interpretation. This only improved my opinion of Lily, as I'm sure SF was not always as pure in motive as Lily insisted she was. Lying to the person you love most in the world about who you are is no small thing. It's despicable, IMO. Forgiving the person who lied is huge. I thought SF's lie showed selfishness, but I forgave her as Lily did. I don't think L and SF were that different in personality, they just had different lives. I think all woman of that era in China were the exact same personality type. I'm an introvert, that's all I remember. Don't make me take that test again, K? It was dirty when SF did bed business with her husband by the fire in front of everyone. And she even made noises? Really, SF? It also broke my heart when Lily refused to let her daughter and SF's daughter have their feet disfigured together. It was even more depressing when SF's daughter's life turned out so terrible after that. I do think Lily loved her husband, despite the fact that he never figured out how to do bed business right.Hi, Eekareek.PS. Markie is famous cuz he's starring in a new motion picture called The Measure of a Man.
Thank you for your input, JespyFlower. And for saying Amanda was wrong and I was right.That's what you said, right?Signed,ESTJ
Hold on a minute little miss ISFP, or are you an ISFJ, I can't remember. Lily stopped being SF's laotong without even discussing it with her first or giving SF the benefit of the doubt that maybe there had been a misunderstanding. True friends don't take offense like that and run with it. Lily refused to do their daughter's footbinding together and allow them to become laotong, she felt her daughter was too good for SF's son, she completely humiliated SF in front of all those ladies by telling that horrible story about her, she wasn't there for her when she got sick, she wrongly judged her and abandoned her and her family. Spring Moon may have lived instead of killing herself if Lily had stepped into her life sooner. Yes, it's great that she feels terrible and tried to right her wrongs in the end by helping SF's granddaughter, and yes it's great that she took responsibility for what she did but I still stand by my statement that people like her never learn and they never change. What I mean is an ESTJ will never be an INFP and vice versa. Lily will never be able to understand what it was like to be Snow Flower. However, Lily did learn from the tragedy about what friendship really means and I think she will not make the same mistakes again. In that way I think she has grown and changed. I also think she matured and gained more compassion. I do not condone what SF did by lying to Lily, but didn't they both use each other to better their positions in life? Neither was a true match for each other economically. And what did SF gain by lying anyway? Life with a butcher. Whoo hoo. What did Lily gain by being matched up with SF? A whole heck of a lot. Even though SF lied to Lily, Lily still gained from it. I wanted to see more compassion from Lily for everything SF had been through and was going through. Instead I was frustrated by her constant judging, nagging, and lack of empathy. Don't get me wrong, I liked both characters. They both drove me crazy sometimes but overall I liked them. Maybe I projected too much of my mother on Lily, I don't know and identified too much with Snow Flower and her personalities and circumstances. What I do know for sure is footbinding is way freaky and I'm glad I'm not Chinese.
Hold on a minute little miss ISFP, or are you an ISFJ, I can't remember. Lily stopped being SF's laotong without even discussing it with her first or giving SF the benefit of the doubt that maybe there had been a misunderstanding. True friends don't take offense like that and run with it. Lily refused to do their daughter's footbinding together and allow them to become laotong, she felt her daughter was too good for SF's son, she completely humiliated SF in front of all those ladies by telling that horrible story about her, she wasn't there for her when she got sick, she wrongly judged her and abandoned her and her family. Spring Moon may have lived instead of killing herself if Lily had stepped into her life sooner. Yes, it's great that she feels terrible and tried to right her wrongs in the end by helping SF's granddaughter, and yes it's great that she took responsibility for what she did but I still stand by my statement that people like her never learn and they never change. What I mean is an ESTJ will never be an INFP and vice versa. Lily will never be able to understand what it was like to be Snow Flower. However, Lily did learn from the tragedy about what friendship really means and I think she will not make the same mistakes again. In that way I think she has grown and changed. I also think she matured and gained more compassion.
I do not condone what SF did by lying to Lily, but didn't they both use each other to better their positions in life? Neither was a true match for each other economically. And what did SF gain by lying anyway? Life with a butcher. Whoo hoo. What did Lily gain by being matched up with SF? A whole heck of a lot. Even though SF lied to Lily, Lily still gained from it. I wanted to see more compassion from Lily for everything SF had been through and was going through. Instead I was frustrated by her constant judging, nagging, and lack of empathy. Don't get me wrong, I liked both characters. They both drove me crazy sometimes but overall I liked them. Maybe I projected too much of my mother on Lily, I don't know and identified too much with Snow Flower and her personalities and circumstances. What I do know for sure is footbinding is way freaky and I'm glad I'm not Chinese.
Hmm. OK. I hear you. But neither Lily nor SF chose to stop being laotongs, they both thought the other one had ended it. Remember? It wasn't a matter of Lily taking offense and ending it, she mistakenly thought SF had joined a whatchamacallit group, and (as was explained previous to this happening in the book) in their culture if a laotong joins another group, they automatically break the contract and end the laotong relationship. The whole thing was quite sad. Keeping it within the context of the culture, it was easy for me to forgive both characters for the things they had done wrong and not judge either of them too harshly. (I guess that means ISFP/ISFJ personality types must be super forgiving and understanding and nonjudgmental and pretty. Clearly. That's me to a T!)
Oooh! Look at all of these belated discussion comments!! So awesome. This book is a slow-cooker, I think.So....it's been just long enough since I finished the book that I can't get into too much detail. I can't remember enough to defend myself. But, I will say; regarding the betrayal from Snow Flower to Lily, it wasn't even Snow Flower's betrayal to begin with. It was the matchmaker. And her parents. All of the grownups who KNEW what the deal was. Sure, after their friendship was developed and the girls were older, SF could have told her the real truth, but don't you imagine she was terrified that she'd lose her best friend? I'd be bold enough to suggest that we all have things that we hold secret from even our dearest and bestest friends, simply because we are either ashamed or because we just don't know how to share such painful details. Her families situation, in that culture, was a massive blow to their social standing. Worse even than being married to a butcher. I just hate that Lily held SF so reponsible for the deception. Being one who was so true to the traditions and 'rules' she might have been a little more compassionate. Wouldn't she have done the same? Did SF really have a choice? Lying is definitely one of the ten commandments, but I don't think in SF's position, it was despicable. How much control do any of us have over where we come from, the families we are attached to? I have to also say that I think it's an interesting perspective that all women during that time had the same personality type. Really? I mean....really? That can't be true in any culture, in any time period, in any situation. Books and movies and stories are quite often based on people in such difficult situations who break free of the stereotype and prove that despite their cultural responsibilities, they are still individual and unique. I also wanted to throw in my two cents about Lily's advice to SF. Was it unwanted? Wasn't Lily just saying what she knew to be the 'right' thing to say? She was shrewd enough to know that she had landed an honorable position as Lady Lu and she had a namesake to uphold, a responsibility. I certainly agree that bed business in front of everyone by the fire was GROSS. But the man beat her fhs! If you were married to a man who beat you...and he wanted to get it on by the fire - would you choose the risk of public awareness of your bed business or take a beating? I'm just sayin.' We really didn't get much of SF's perspective and maybe there was more going on there than Lily was aware of.
Yowza! This must be the longest discussion in the history of SRBC! Nice job, Stands.K, this is crazy, cuz it's like half of the story is being rewritten right here in this discush. Or maybe it's still fresh in my mind because I only finished it on Sunday. Either way, in the book I read, Lily immediately forgave SF for lying to her, understood why she had lied, and put all the blame on her own mother. It was her mother she didn't forgive. In fact, right after Lily discovered the lie, without missing a beat, she helped SF clean up her nasty house, make clothes, found a bunch of strangers to sing and what not, so her laotong could have a happy/blessed marriage. (didn't work tho) I'm not disputing the fact that Lily made mistakes and was mean to SF after the big misunderstanding, but I was able to forgive her and understand why she had done those things, so I don't judge her as harshly. I pitied the poor girl. She needed forgiveness. Plus, I've always been an easy forgiver-type, according to Myers-Briggs. And I was j/king about the "everyone has the same personalities" thing. Sorry that wasn't clear, I could have saved you lots of sentences. I don't, however, agree with A's assessment of their personality types. At all. That's ok, though, right?What I found disturbing about the campfire bed business was SF's MOANING!!! She could have held in the sounds of pleasure. But I am glad she enjoyed bed business. One of the biggest tragedies of the story was that Lily didn't understand why SF enjoyed it.If we had gotten SF's perspective, I bet we would have seen lots of unflattering bitterness or jealousy, but that's just natural. Wasn't that how CeeCee's BFF felt in Beaches? Refresh my memory. Thanks for hearing me out girls! Love you long time.
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